With trepidation, I will try again...

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Thread: With trepidation, I will try again...

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 1969

    Default With trepidation, I will try again...

    When I announced yesterday that I was going to leave the ASP forums, it was primarily because I had been well and thoroughly "told off" by three different posters within the <BR>last month, including two within the last week. I will quote some of those comments:<BR><BR>********************************* *******<BR><BR>From Remy:<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "If I have to hear some wise *** remark from <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Bill Wilkenson, well Bill, I&#039d rather not have <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; your input. Your attitude sucks and I&#039d rather <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; you pass me right over..."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "...every answer I get from Bill is some sort <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; of stuck up remark. I&#039m not looking for someone <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to tell me how bad my code is...and not everyone <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; is a pro from the starting gate....the snotty <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; remarks are certainly not worth it."<BR><BR>(The strange thing is, I can not find one single other thread anywhere in the forum where I answered a question posed by "Remy". I&#039d be willing to look at his specific complaints, but I can&#039t find them with "Search". Remy: If you read this, I *do* invite you to respond privately to me, if you wish, at my billw@chilisoft.com address.)<BR><BR>********************************* ******<BR><BR>From Rob:<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "...it&#039s good to know someone with nothing to do but <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be on this board all day long insulting people..."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "...I have become increasingly annoyed with people <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; like you who...I assume get a sense of importance <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in their life that they get no where else. If you <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; are so smarter than everyone else, then why steal <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; someone elses glory (such as Scott Mitchell&#039s)."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "Your rudeness distracts from the enjoyment of this board...<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; If you don&#039t like the question, then don&#039t answer <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; and don&#039t hang out on a general board."<BR><BR>(And the only provable error Rob made there was<BR> saying it was a "general board" when actually it <BR>was the "Advanced ASP" board. But that&#039s a detail.)<BR><BR>(No, I take it back...he also said I had nothing else to do but hang out here. Whew! Wish that were true! I fixed at least a dozen bugs in our product this week. I can definitely prove him wrong there!)<BR><BR>*********************************** ****<BR><BR>In these cases, and in the prior incident, various posters have "stood up" for me, which I truly did and do appreciate. And after yesterday&#039s announcement, roughly 15 people publicly asked me to leave and another 15 or so emailed me privately (there were a couple of people in both groups).<BR><BR>How do I read this? That for every 2 people who hate me there are 30 people who like me? I don&#039t think that is true; I think it would be reading too much into the numbers.<BR><BR>I strongly suspect that there are many others out there who think I am pedantic (to which I freely admit! on the few occasions when I have signed a message something other than "Bill Wilkinson" it has almost always been from "Pedantic Bill"), too didactic, too arrogant, too... well, you pick your own adjectives.<BR><BR>I find some comfort in the fact that I am not the only one who has been "picked on." There have been others who have left because they felt that those they tried to help did not appreciate them. There are others still posting here who have come close to leaving. But that is, truly, cold comfort at best.<BR><BR>What next, then? <BR><BR>****************************************<B R><BR>Tell you what...<BR><BR>Let me tell you where I am coming from:<BR><BR>I WANT EVERY ONE OF YOU TO LEARN, LEARN, LEARN. I wish every one of you could become a topnotch programmer. I would love it if you could outperform the teacher! (And I&#039ve had a couple of protoges in the past who now certainly outperform me in terms of salary! It&#039s a great feeling. I&#039m jealous, but it&#039s still a great feeling.)<BR><BR>But...<BR><BR>You knew there was a "but" in there, didn&#039t you?<BR><BR>But I don&#039t tolerate those who waste our time gladly. Oh, I&#039ll answer or do most anything for a *real* beginner! And if you demonstrate that you&#039ve at least researched the question (e.g., visited the ASPFAQs, checked the online MS docs, etc.), I&#039ll fall all over myself to try to help you. Especially if it&#039s an interesting question.<BR><BR>But, dammit, if I think that the thing you are asking would require a book (or at least a chapter) in response, then I&#039m quite liable to tell you to go read a book. Or check out an online site. Or "why not try it?" if that&#039s an appropriate response.<BR><BR>And perhaps the thing that, I think, irritates some people the most: If I think that you are doing something wrong, I will tell you so. No minced words. "That&#039s the wrong way..." "You need to learn about database normalization..." "That works, but it&#039s very inefficient..." <BR><BR>(On the other hand, if you are doing something interesting or thought-provoking or original...well, I like to be the first to shake your hand, even if only virtually.)<BR><BR>Yes, it is embarrassing to be called wrong in a public forum. I should know, I&#039ve been called wrong so many times I long ago lost count. So what do you do when you are wrong? You leave the list and... Oops! No, that&#039s what we want to *prevent*, isn&#039t it. <BR><BR>Sigh...<BR><BR>*************************** **************<BR><BR>So what does all this mean? I guess Scott and Ian have convinced me to try again. And try not to be so thin skinned. <BR><BR>Can I change my style of posting? Oh, maybe for a week or two. But you *know* that I am going to slip back into it all too soon. <BR><BR>So what can I do, instead? I guess the first thing to do is simply start telling people that all they have to do to keep me from answering them is tell me so. (But please, if your "screen name" is a common word or name, try to change it to something distinctive, so I won&#039t stop answering every "Steve" [just an example!] in the world.)<BR><BR>*********************************** ******<BR><BR>But even before that, I invite your comments. TELL ME WHY you find a particular post irritating. You can call me an *** all you want, but if you don&#039t tell me *WHY* you think I&#039m an ***, how can I know what to change?<BR><BR>It doesn&#039t mean I will agree with you. I might very well get my dander up and argue with you. Mea culpa. I&#039m human. I have my own pride. (Some claim I have way too damned much. I prefer to think of it as age. As in "Age and cunning will outdo youth and enthusiasm every time.")<BR><BR>Enough. We&#039ll make another stab at it. Don&#039t expect me to change a lot. Do expect me to start sprinkling my answers with warnings such as "If you don&#039t like or agree with this post..." I&#039m still working out the wording of what I sure will become a standard "sig" for me. Sigh.<BR><BR>************************************* ******<BR><BR>Once again, personal thanks to [in no particular order] Atrax, Akhilesh, Steve, Steve, Steve [see why the example above?], Greg, David, Peter, Kristin, Paul, Linda, Joel, Shaun, Ian B., Vivaldi, Andrew, MG, Duncan, GW, and of course Ian Stallings and Scott Mitchell.<BR><BR>This is no guarantee I will stay forever. My skin is, perhaps, thinner than it should be. But I&#039ll try to do what I can.<BR><BR>Bill Wilkinson<BR><BR><BR>

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 1969

    Default RE: With trepidation, I will try again...

    Welcome back.<BR><BR>I&#039ve posted Qs here just a couple of times in the last year or so. And you&#039re the only one who&#039s ever given an intelligent answer. (Had a flame war on one occasion when someone was trying to be arrogant - but failed).<BR><BR>I marvel at the way you continue to write long detailed instructions on array handling or string trimming or whatever. Where do you get that patience?<BR><BR>I realise that porting asp is your game, and that it&#039s definitely in chilisoft&#039s interest that you play an active role in the asp community. Which make that remark about you &#039hanging out on the board cos you&#039ve got nothing better to do&#039 (or whetever it was) particularly stupid.<BR><BR>Most people come here to fudge their way through a tricky job at work, or kill billing time, and I know you&#039re not learning anything technical from hanging out here. So I have to ask: What do you get out of the time and energy you spend here?<BR><BR>NOT to be facetious / disrespectful / unappreciative, just wondering whether it doesn&#039t get a little boring.<BR><BR>Personally, I have a kind of addiction to lurking in the same old net places and it can feel kinda stale and hungover from time to time. But I&#039m still there. Lurking and reading.<BR><BR>Toby<BR>toby_privett@yahoo.com

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 1969

    Default CROSSPOST! :-)


  4. #4
    iyyappan n iyer aka iyy Guest

    Default good luck, bill

    i try and answer a few questions. and i am always amazed, by the number of answers Mr Wilkinson, tirelessly, dishes out. I wish him good luck.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 1969

    Default Good to hear...

    Good job. Don&#039t let a few picklebrains ruin what you do for us and this board.<BR><BR><BR><BR>

  6. #6
    Shaun (janix) Guest

    Default RE: With trepidation, I will try again...

    Whew... I am so pumped now!<BR><BR>Shaun<BR>

  7. #7
    Linda Pyrc Guest

    Default Thanks Bill

    Bill,<BR><BR>Youve been a great help to a great number of programmers. Im glad that youve had a change of heart ... I for one want to LEARN, LEARN, LEARN and if that means that from time to time Im going to be told to go back to basics then thats fine. <BR><BR>Thank for all your help in the past, present and now future.<BR>

  8. #8
    Jerry Cole Guest

    Default RE: With trepidation, I will try again...

    Bravo for your decision to stay!<BR><BR>But if you left, then I might be the smartest one left...Hmmmmm. Not really, not hardly, not ever! LOL!<BR><BR>But whatever you do, dont change because a few people were unhappy with your responses. Tone is one of the hardest to write/detect in email. Five different people could read the same message and each one could interpet the tone differently. <BR><BR>So, dont change your style (much), just be aware there are people out there with even thinner skins than yours! &#060;grin&#062;<BR><BR>Many more people will benefit from your contributions than not.

  9. #9
    MG Guest

    Default Yippeeee, Hurrrrraaaay

    Glad to here that you are back. I have learned so much from reading your answers and that includes answers to questions that I thought I already knew. Anyway, thought you would like to know that I visit this messageboard in large part to look for your posts (I read every one that I can find) so I can learn, learn, learn. I love learning ASP/programming stuff. I also enjoy helping others out too. Have a great day!!!!!!

  10. #10
    all of us Guest

    Default RE: Yippeeee, Hurrrrraaaay

    Hey BW keep doing what ur doing!<BR>from<BR>jeremy,raving lunatic,Jennifer,Jolene,justin,NAOMI,Alladin,ANNA, B&#039stard,Ceasar,Desperate,melanie<BR>;-)

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